What if someone really holy doesn't want  to go to Heaven?
What if they petition God to continue succoring the afflicted,
giving drink to the thirsty and clothing the naked after death?
What if hearing prayers in comfort from afar just isn't them?
Would it violate His plan too much to let them serve in Hell?

Yes it would Tom. Clearly God is All Forgiving until your dead.

This is more than a teaser. Really powerful. I wish I'd studied theology because it's tied up with poetry all the time.Pam

Grant, good clear answer. Thank you!
Pam, same here. I loosen their bonds for 30 minutes every day and let them play a little ring-toss. LOL. Tom

this reminds me of... that in Mahāyāna Buddhism there is the level of the Bodhisattva Shepherd, who makes sure that all his/her sheep arrive safely ahead of himself and places their welfare above his/her own before he/she attains enlightenment.

I like that, Silent. That's me -- postponing enlightenment to give others first dibs! Stuff doesn't grow on trees. Tom

Theology is tied up with poetry all the time.
                                           - Pam Scobie

Lord, how many centuries?
But then one day
the door at the top of the stairs
was yanked open
and we heard the muffled cries
of another prisoner
being wrestled to the top step
and then sent tumbling down.
We looked at each other
in amazement—
hope and consternation both
choking our throats.
Our new cell-mate moaned,
stirred and finally lifted his face.
“Oh, great,” he grumbled,
“Ma and Pa Kettle!”

interesting read. humans make the simple complicated when the complicated is actually simple.

Heaven: To be with God.
Hell:       To be without God.
Politicians: Think they are God.
God: Knows God is God.
(and the list goes on and on.)

Who?
"Kant, on the other hand, appealed to an empirically present simplicity, a simplicity subject to modification. For example, degree (temperature) is a simple determination, but is subject to the greatest variation. Red is simple, but can become more or less intense. It is always this same simple red. Accordingly, as Kant tells us, if the soul or consciousness is laid out as something simple that is no proof of the immortality of the soul. Consciousness can be subject to variations in intensity and can sink into unconsciousness, as in sleep. The sensation we have of the remaining amputated stubs of members still qualifies as consciousness, but in degree is only one step removed from consciousness at its very weakest. Such simplicity is a good counter-example to the classical metaphysical category of simplicity. The real interest of the immortality of the soul goes quite beyond merely abstract simplicity. Spirit is more concrete in its simplicity. The main point is that such abstract metaphysical categories corresponding to the Kantian categories of the understanding are one-sided, and are insufficient to grasp anything true, precisely because there is no truth to them. Such simplicity is an abstraction without activity—a one-sided and untrue determination." - Hegel

yes, humans have a wonderful knack of making much out of nothing. a rock: simple, hard, heavy, laying undisturbed except for the random whims of glaciers, earthquakes, storms. then, man comes along, cuts it into a faceted diamond, which is stolen, other people are murdered. or, another rock is cast in anger by a man towards another man who also throws rocks. better and more simple to leave the rock rest where it is.

truth is truth and then there is Truth, just as god is god and then there is God. there is a reason for the words, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

i wish i could simply let the wood lay outside, peaceful under the many feet of fresh snow, but i must now complicate my life by dressing for battle, fire up the cranky saw, and cut/split/carry the pieces so we may have warmth.

Not just the holy, but I think many will willingly divert to Hell: some easily fooled, and some very brave who'll gamble it all in that place of gaudy flowers and black alleys.

Have a good chop, Robin.

Peter, you bring up the interesting thought. Maybe El Diablo's whole ploy is to sell us on the Hot Coals Resort rather than the Cloud Nine!
Open bar, all you can eat buffet, etc.

Tom

Dear God. I've been told all is simple. Please give me the simple equation for who lives Without God forever. Please don't tell me well, just the Christians, because that would make a lot of good people godless. If Truth or truth were simple none of us would be here offering up our latest attempts.

your pen is lively,
Tom.  keep 'em
coming!

tiko

Yes, I think Hell could have a strong tourist appeal.  But with all those scores to be settled and such sharp knives and questionable policing, I think many will wish they'd given it a miss.

Worms, as I imagine them, don't bother with poetry. They're living in Truth probably. Who the heck knows, Grant?

Thanks, Tiko. They DO keep coming, that's about all I can say about THEM. Tom

Heh. No one around these parts Tom. Gives us all something to do.

Hi Tom,

Surely, if the holy want to "continue comforting the afflicted, giving drink to the thirsty and clothing the naked after death", they would have to go to hell, as they would be redundant in heaven, and would just end up getting al bored and being idle - and you know what they say about idle hands....

Regards,

Roger

Great point, Roger. A great addition to the "story" -- how the very saints become the devil's tools. I'll tell you, God just can't win. People just don't think  like He does. Tom

A whole new poem to boot! Fabulous!

Thanks to you, Pam. Thank you.

Theology is tied up with poetry all the time.
                                           - Pam Scobie

Lord, how many centuries?
But then one day
the door at the top of the stairs
was yanked open
and we heard the muffled cries
of another prisoner
being wrestled to the top step
and then sent tumbling down.
We looked at each other
in amazement—
hope and consternation both
choking our throats.
Our new cell-mate moaned,
stirred and finally lifted his face.
“Oh, great,” he grumbled,
“Ma and Pa Kettle!”

Tom

Lucifer before the fall
was in his sunny summer days
predating his winter of discontent
and great spring forward

Roger

the song is from 1968

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8yYUbKYkO0

Thanks, Silent!
The early stories have Satan rebelling upon being commanded to bow down to Man, or otherwise "obeyed not God's commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince." But your idea that they rebelled even indirectly because God limited their ability to do good works, Roger, is novel to me - as well as the implication that new demons might still be being made of more recent saints, because of the same limitations - will be thinking about it! Tom

God's in his heaven, and very little's right with the world. What's new? Hell must be heaven for masochists (earth too, if you're so inclined). When a man invented the first god, it made him rich, and created opportunities for boundless confusion. Pure genius.

Cheers

milner

Thanks for looking in, Milner. To the extent that Pam's point flies, he simultaneously invented literature--"opportunities for boundless confusion. Pure genius." We're stuck with both now!Nice point of view, Silent. I guess that's what proprietary doctrine and doctrinal behavior requirements are all about, more or less.
Tom

I begged God,
     “Let me go Below
     to see if I can help.”
God said,
     “The whole point of Below
     is that there is  no help.”
I said,
     “Do it for me, then.
     I'm not happy Up Here
     sitting on my hands.”
He said,
     “I'm sorry, Saint,
      but rules are rules.”
I said,
     “Well, fuck You then!”
And then I got my wish,
the Prick.

[p.s. the post I responded to below has disappeared, a question about the agreement of "someone" and "they" in top post, L1-2]

I hear you, and you're right. But I support and accept whatever cost comes with supporting the relatively new usage of "they" as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender. Here, anyway, I hear it everywhere in speech - "If somebody doesn't like rain, they shouldn't live in Portland." I'm starting to see it in writing too, and written about in usage manuals etc. It is, I believe, the solution that the language has finally hit upon to the 50-year-old feminist rejection of "he" for indeterminate gender. The "he or she" and "he/she" and "s/he" and the like are just too clumsy, and "one" too stilted. Nerd that I am, I actually feel blessed to be living through the whole drama - a pronoun usage changing its number - from challenge to solution.

Or I'm wrong, but I'll probably die before I find out! Tom

hey tom,

yes, i deleted the post (sorry) after realizing that, technically as you point out, i am wrong according to new usage guidelines.  it still sounds off to my ear, but maybe i'm just old school.  i hear it a lot, too.  i guess trying to get people to replace"he" with "she" never worked out that well. 

Yes, that was one other attempted solution: to sort of alternate "he" and "she." It's fascinating to watch the cycles of proposal/resistance, proposal/resistance... The reason I feel like singular "they" is going to succeed is that the usage is mostly unconscious, unintentional - people don't even know they're doing it. So that sounds like a done deal to me, though resistance in academia, in particular, is ferocious.

p.s. I just Googled "no one in their right mind" and 23,300,000 usages come up; and got a form from my son's school: "If you wish your child to participate, please complete the permission slip and return it to their teacher by Friday."

to picks.

tiko

Thank you, Tiko!
Tom