It may just be my current mood, but I seem to be reading a lot of poems on the site, that although impeccably penned, just leave me cold, except to admire the workmanship.

This reminds me of the 'big question' that I believe we should all ask ourselves before inflicting our stuff on others. It isn't 'is this the right form?' or 'should I have used punctuation or caps?' even 'are the line breaks the best I can do?'. No, it is simply 'is this boring?'.

It's important to remind myself of this.

Cheers

milner

milner, you hit the nail right smack dab on the head.  lately, that's the majority of what i'm seeing...people more concerned with form than content.  and, like you, the bulk of it leaves me absolutely stone cold bored.  people more concerned with showing their technical expertise than in reaching into their soul.  cold cold cold pointless stuff.
john

Agree that this the bouncer at the door. Nobody has written anything that interests everyone, most good writing still bores most people, and someone's interested in pretty much everything -- some people avidly consume chess moves, for example. So one thing is to find out who our audience may be -- then, make sure our opening lines are as good as the later lines, or we lose them too! Tom

you seriously don't believe that, do you?  seriously?  that smacks of elitism and that feeling that "the masses can't understand MY work because it's just too FINE for them to understand".  never underestimate your audience.

Of course, John. That includes your best, and my best, and all the writers whose best is a lot better. Same is true of music, painting, any art. None of it is for everyone.
Which writer do you think most people find fascinating?

I don't think there's anything wrong with readers at all. I think that's the way it is and the way it should be.

(p.s. EXCEPT Gaga, of course.)

i think both the question and Tom's
answer have merit.  more importantly,
we must ask what do readers find
boring or stimulating.  for instance,
i would gather that i have a different
reader than Lynn, or Dax, or the recently
departed Anna.  i think this is because
different readers have different requirements.

i also think it could be that most readers and
poets have a sanitized view of poetry. for most,
if it doesn't contain a flower or a bird, the mention
of stars, and a heart in some shape or form, it's
missed its mark.  then, you have the minority,
like John, Milner, and Rob who ardently require
a split bone and marrow spoon.  can the two
coexist?  can one live with the other?

as it relates to my own writing.  i wonder sometimes
after it's written "do people really enjoy this shit,
or is it just me?", "do they find it interesting"?  i've noticed
most of my work is commented on by editors, and i've
been told that to some degree what i write isn't accessible.
how do you balance that, giving the people what they
want without becoming the next incarnation of Menudo?

who matters most?  which reader do you write for?  
can the other readers be trained?  should the writer
forsake himself for the reader?


tiko


*the response doesn't include readers like Tom, who can
appreciate both.  but, i find he's the greatest minority.

i would also attribute it to churn,
to a great degree.

So I guess you found me at the Menudo fan site, Tiko. Busted.

the churn of stale words in the heart again
love love love thud of the old plunger
pestling the unalterable
whey of words
- Beckett, "Cascando"

Tom

If you're churning the milk, don't forget to put salt in the butter.

milner

ah, salt - so essential - just not too much!  lol- M

art

as
the
spirit
wanes
the
form
appears.     
                .....C. Bukowski.....

butter makes it better!!

an important question
that's begging to be asked:

what makes the poetry boring?

tiko

My inspiration (borrowed from Schopenhauer) has always been to understand what you're writing, why you're writing it, and to whom you're writing it for.  To which I add, always strive to write it well.  If have you have a clear understanding of what, why, and for whom, you can concentrate everything on writing it well.  I will often write the same poem/story/essay/book many times, always starting at ground zero.  I have quite literally dozens of variations of the same idea.  So many writers think revision is just subtituting words, breaking lines differently, adding a stanza here and there, when really if the idea works in your head but not on paper, throw the paper out.  Tell the same story to different readers, because your audience will influence how your story is told.  I wouldn't explain something to my young children the same way I'd tell the story to my peers.  The most striking example of this kind of revision is Nietzsche's Beyond Good And Evil and his Thus Spoke Zarathrustra.  These two books represent the same ideas (and arguments) but the books are as different as night and day.  Also, the same kind of revision is found in Hemmingway's short stories.  When the original stories were stolen from his apartment, rather than try to remember how they were and reprint them, he started from ground zero and rebuilt them.  These are the lessons young writers need to embrace.  Saying all of this, contrary to the old saying, sometimes the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater.  And sometimes somebody should take a sledge-hammer to the bathtub as well :)

I agree. One thing I get out of this site is that every time someone I'm familiar with reads a draft of mine, it prompts me to re-see it through what I imagine to be their mentality -- a different angle -- which really helps revision.

You want to brutal with yourself, give it to a 16-year-old.

Separate
poet from reader,
reader from commentator,
especially poet from commentator.

That's the key.

It's about any style done well. a) does it grab you? b) does it do it well?

Nothing do to with whether or not it sounds like your 'style.'

As to my 'writing' - this is a compliment: "then, you have the minority,
like John, Milner, and Rob who ardently require
a split bone and marrow spoon..."

As to reading, I'll read Bukowski to Beckett and HD, Eliot, Pound to Donne, Plath, Plath.

oh dear the 'is this boring' question!  for me being a full time performer, poetry is a place of expression where i'm away from the pressure/expectation to entertain folk!  -maybe i've got it all wrong!
reading poems on this site i usually think poetry that isn't exciting to me will be exciting for someone else.  also i remember a writer interviewed on the radio advised 'write for your ideal reader'  :) x

i feel like i'm in rare company.  compliment accepted.
jy

the thing is, you can't let the preciousness of your words overwhelm you.  once you allow yourself to be more concerned with HOW you're saying things, as opposed to what you're saying, then you might as well pick up your toys and go home,  because for all intents and purposes, the game's over.

You know when a magazine occasionally prints a cartoon without a caption and asks subscribers to submit their best for a prize? Well this thread reminds me of such a picture and I’ve three captions to respectfully submit:

#1. Hey, weren’t you supposed to bring the beer, the DJ already started.

#2. Gee John, we kind of thought Milner was talking about you.

#3. Who swiped the crib sheets, the test is tomorrow.

larry;
i'll just chalk up your second comment to you being a bit off your game.  and as for the discussion here, it all boils down to deciding whether one views poetry as a jig-saw puzzle or a lifeline.  personally, i was never interested in games.
john

Hey, this one is getting a good run.

Incidentally, I wasn't suggesting that this was the only question we should ask ourselves. Others relating to style and form, etc, ie craftmanship, are obviously valid and appropriate. I'm just suggesting that this should be the first. And there can be a problem when form/technique becomes our master, not our servant.

Cheers

larry i would like to dance with you! xx

A few bits out of many:

from an article in the March 2000 Yale Alumni magazine:

"...But popularity does not necessarily mean high quality, and Yale's faithful are sticking to a disciplined approach to poetry as high art. Says Hollander, a Sterling Professor of English who is also one of the nation's leading critical readers of poetry and an accomplished poet himself: "The idea of some 28th-rate writer letting students do anything they want and saying, 'I like this about that,' makes serious poets and teachers cringe."

Indeed, Yale still stresses the careful analysis of poetry and focuses on a simple tenet in teaching it: To be a great writer, one has to be a great reader. By disciplining one's self to learn the traditions, study the greats, understand the form, dive deeply into the craft, and know as much as possible about, say, language and history, one can expect to have a richer experience of poetry—and perhaps of the rest of the world.

Even in the e-mail age, this view still makes converts among undergraduates. Oana Marian, a sophomore who was born in Romania but grew up near Waterbury, Connecticut, says that studying and writing poetry is helping her shape communication more precisely in all areas of her life. "Since I got to Yale I've been a little less sure about my speaking," she says. "I suddenly realize I often didn't know what I really was saying when I said something. Studying poetry teaches you to concentrate on every word. It makes you more conscious of what you're saying."

Other students echo Marian's view, saying that the way they've been taught to read, analyze, and write about poems in the classroom has helped them with such real-world demands as constructing an argument or developing persuasive ways of writing...."  http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/00_03/poetry.html



Some delightful thoughts from the Economist:
http://www.economist.com/node/12758352/comments

Some thoughts to further discussion:

"There are several disagreements as to what constitutes a commentary. Some hold that by nature, it is not formal--it can be a running "commentary"(hence the term, "commentary") of what the examinee sees in a given poem. Though this approach runs the risk of seeming like a literary version of a grocery list, as long as the examinee sees some overarching, organizing method--an idea, concept, or literary device that the poet uses to hold the poem together cohesively--the commentary need not be as tightly formulaic as the five paragraph thesis paper (which is generally despised in most circles because it discourages divergent thinking).
 
Others say that this organic approach makes it impossible to surmise any actual literary analysis through this approach. A beginning "thesis" of what the poem's focus, followed by organizing the analysis into patterns, strands, or organizational groups, makes it easy to follow a persuasive, holistic presentation.

All agree, however, on the paramount importance of framing one's literary analysis within the terms and devices of poetry; one must both identify literary elements, analyze its purpose and effect, and speak intelligently as to tone, diction, structure, mood, and form." http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/IB_English/Commentary#How_to_write_a_Poetry_Commentary.3F

Priceless!!

http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/HKPC/Poetry_and_Philosophy.htm


"Commentator vs. commenter

 A commenter is someone who comments on something. These days the word most often denotes people who post comments on blogs and news websites. A commentator is someone who provides commentary. The word most often applies to professionals in sports broadcasting or television news. The difference between these words corresponds to the difference between comment and commentary. A comment is an isolated remark, while a commentary is a series of remarks, explanations, and interpretations." http://www.grammarist.com/usage-errors/word-confusion/commentator-vs-commenter/

These few pages from Koosers' Manual are worth reading through where it speaks to reader.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3oi_6oxZfGoC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=define+a+reader+of+poetry&source=bl&ots=H5eEtRz59j&sig=BfoxngPWlMryWLVXxpky8UUIkMk&hl=en&ei=w7ewTY-TG8aftgfstejkCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=define%20a%20reader%20of%20poetry&f=false

"Commentator vs. commenter

 A commenter is someone who comments on something. These days the word most often denotes people who post comments on blogs and news websites. A commentator is someone who provides commentary. The word most often applies to professionals in sports broadcasting or television news. The difference between these words corresponds to the difference between comment and commentary. A comment is an isolated remark, while a commentary is a series of remarks, explanations, and interpretations." http://www.grammarist.com/usage-errors/word-confusion/commentator-vs-commenter/

I wasn't going to post much but Maggie, really? Really? Maybe I'm touchy, but this whole thread stinks of veiled attacks, snide comments, us vs. them, and other assorted garbage. A few of the comments are actually quite trenchant and borderline mean-spirited.

With that, I bid you all, Happy Easter, Happy Writing and Hugs and Kisses.

Out,

RLR

Rob, You brought these subjects up in your post today. It would appear from your comment that you haven't read the encompassing article,
or the articles that follow which are all pertinent to the positions you raised as a solution to Milner's original question re: boring poetry.

I'm not sure who your "us vs. them is, but I'm not playing.

Maggie

John, sorry this was taken wrong. It was a joke. The discussion is historically humorous. Good vs bad is so dependent of the subjective which was the thrust of the joke. Poetry has always been conficted with style and genre. As an editor i have always commented on the value of a poem within its style or genre and never pitted one against the other. I do not plan to start now. Rime, meter, sound, diction, form and content are often displayed within the style. Love poems are always love poems and are commented as such, not whether love poems or slice of life poems are better than non-love poems, etc.

Again sorry for what I see now could be taken this way, I have seriously misread the humor quotient of the community tonight. After countless positive reviews of your work, I am surprised you missed the tongue in cheek...

larry

la

not a problem, larry.  besides, not a thing could dampen my mood as i announced earlier that i learned yesterday that my manuscript for an illustrated children's book was accepted for publication!  i'm branching out!  18 books of poetry...two novels...and now a children's book!  it's a VERY good day!  and larry?  you're a good guy and i'd be proud to sip tequila with you any day of the week.  make mine Patron!
john

Should the 16 year olds be our publishers?

They're busy negotiating/creating their own generation's thing. Maybe our job is to leave slabs of sidewalk to the pasts/futures onto which they can add their own.

LOL!

Two should get together, box a few rounds, then make a film together -- maybe crosscuts, telling same story with different casts & styles.

love that idea :)

i do love your poem-showered reply in this thread mr lotus  x

Hmm. The big question, eh? I haven't read any big answers yet, but that's fine. There aren't any. World is crazier and more of it than we think.

there aren't any answers is correct,
i think.  there are no meal deals in
writing.

tiko

I like red lollypops
He likes yellow ones...
Whatever. They are still lollypops.
Granted there are those poems that are sour and cut your tongue
but to someone else they taste so friggin sweet, a dead diabetic would rise like Lazarus.
Shit is shit... I should know  I write a lot!
But it is still poetry
Mike

Mike - you made me laugh. Bravo.

`


Haiku Reviews

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/22/haiku-reviews-peter-frank_1_n_852824.html#s268652



HuffPost Arts' Haiku Reviews is a weekly feature where invited critics review exhibitions and performances in short form. Some will be in the traditional Haiku form of 5x7x5 syllables, others might be a sonnet or a string of words together. This week Peter Frank and George Heymont give quick takes on performing and visual art from San Francisco to New York. Is there a show or performance that you think people should know about? Write a Haiku with a link and shine a light on something you think is noteworthy too


`

i was out of town for the last several days, and didn't have the chance to keep up with the comments in this thread.  the one listed above, in particular, coming just the day after i posted a notice that i've got a children's book coming out, struck close to home.  it should certainly serve as a warning to me for being so foolish as to think of writing a book for kids, but, i've been successfully running through stop signs my entire life and don't see why i should consider it at this late stage in the game.  besides, i have to disagree with the statement and say that as far as i can tell, little kids absolutely LOVE holding books with brightly coloured pages, and love having the stories read to them.  i don't think that will ever change.  and, for sure, i never will. 
it's what i do.
john

dear John


i too hope we can hold onto that tactile experience for a while


but just like... someone shoves a knife & fork into our hands
when we are still enjoying licking off our fingers

the next generations will be quick to give kids
a screen to read


silent lotus

~

I stand behind what I've written in my essay about the electronic age.  The value of printed literature is especially true when it comes to children and early education.

Wolf

and i guess my final word on this (my decision to publish a meat-world children's book) is my absolute confidence and conviction that i am heading in the right direction.  interestingly (to me, at least), yesterday i started reading George Eliot's 1876 novel DANIEL DERONDA, and it begins with an uncredited quote that reads:

"Let thy chief terror be thine own soul."

Children need a few playthings: books (real ones), colouring books and crayons (real ones), puzzles and other tactile brain toys. A glass and metal slab cannot and will not ever replace those things. My gut tells me that 'old school' books will make a massive resurgence, alongside electronic media, when the novelty of tablets wears thin. 'Comfort' books will be paper; technical books (textbooks, manuals, etc.) will go electronic. If it's to be loved, really loved, it will have to exist in the real world of print. Disposable stuff like magazines and course books will exist in the clouds. The rest, still on our shelves.

Don't think everything has to be so black and white on print or screen. I can read novels quite happily on kindle, whilst preferring to handle poetry in a form that I can leaf through and touch. But if going away for a while, I'd be happy to have several books of poems also in kindle for the convenience, rather than tote the weight and bulk around. The author and publisher get their cut either way. I gather 20% of books are already purchased for the screen, and doubt this is going to go any way but up. I know many publishers don't like this, but I doubt the tide can be stemmed. I think there's room and need for both. I sympathise with the purists in this matter, and respect their position. Even on kindle, I would only buy stuff that had gone through an editor, and maybe there looms a large problem there. There is only a minor problem with self-publishing in print, with vanity publishing, but I can recognize that it could be immense on screen.

milner

Milner,

I agree with what you've written here.  If they ever figure out a way to successfully handle the piracy issue, I'll consider making ERP titles (and magazines) available as e-books. 

As for children's books, although they may be available as e-books, any parent or educator who considers only letting children have e-books is making a serious mistake. 

Wolf

I got a Kindle for my youngest, who associated electronics with fun. Then they started using classroom electronics too to bore him with at school. Oh well.

So I read the first three or four posts on this thread and then skipped to the last page. How the heck did it get from Milner's initial comment to print vs. electronic!?!

Anyway, I think Milner is absolutely right, after writing something the best thing you can do is ask, 'is this boring?' And if it is, the best thing you can do is publish it under a different name.

 @ Stewart - hehehe!

The 'is it boring' question is my personal phobia. Each piece I write, there's that gibbering imp over my shoulder, telling me it's....it's...boring. So I re-work, try again, and even when I do finally post, I'm still worried. Well, thanks Milner, for making this a good thing!  ;)  So long..I've got an imp to feed.

Sharon