i really am sorry, but in recent weeks and months the poems and posts on this site have been nothing but bland, boring, repetitive, imitative, derivitave, self-serving and useless.  there was a time when this site rocked, reeled and raged.  it's got none of that now.  it's safe.  and that's sad.
     poetry is about challenge.  it's about change.  it's about blood and guts and bone.  sadly, there's very little of that left to be found here.  jay?  thank you for your input, your  innovation and ideas.
     milner...thank you (very much) for just being you.  for being a genius and one of the best god damned writers i've ever encountered.  i honour you and bless you.
     best...
always...
john
     

John (is this a poem and a departure from your usual autobiographical untitled form - if so, my response is my response to your N), I do hope you get your mojo back soon. Things improve slightly between your 1st and 2nd paragraph, and then greatly by the 3rd, so I do have hope! Tom

no, tom...unfortunately, it's my thoughts on the site itself.  i'd been asked many many times in recent weeks to air my thoughts concerning the drastically declining quality of work on this site...and i've held off...until now...it's basically become a site for people to show how much they know ABOUT poetry, rather than a site to showcase poetry.  and that's sad.
and that's why i'm respectfully withdrawing.
thanks again.
best...
always...
john

hi john,


i just found this confusing. why do you have to leave or whatever it is you're planning? sure there are plenty of new writers here - myself included - who are starting out just as you once did. perhaps we need help from people like yourselves to turn us into good writers (i know you don't like the word poet).

respectfully,

daryl

dear John

thank you for explaining your choice to depart

yet it was told to me many times by editors here that PC was a platform to
submit and receive supportive guidance and commentary in how to improve
the craft of writing.

i feel it is a most honorable and worthy effort here at PC for accomplished authors such as your self
to serve the greater good of the artistic community

if it is your personal wish to no longer fulfill that role
that is very understandable

yet your condemnation of the level of writing
goes against the grain of the purpose of attempting to help others
who wish to learn.... and your choice to omit the names of the people
you say who asked you to voice your opinion is also quite interesting.


i would like to close here by taking the opportunity to post a statement you made
about one of your own poems that reflects of how you think about the right
to post a poem that has a quality that is less than one of your finest.

http://www.poetrycircle.com/index.php/topic,17319.0.html

Re: no,
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 08:29:21 AM » by John Yamrus

they all can't be home runs.
we have to be content with a single or a bunt down the line every now and then.
john

Reply | Reply with quote


John once again.. thank you for what you have shared
and for those who you have chosen to help from time to time
here at PC


and i hope there will always be others who you feel are worthy
of your choice to help


a warm smile
silent lotus

John, nice to see you online. I always appreciate your writing style. Hope to read more of your recent works. Best regards, Richard

Moving this thread to Discussions.

I'm sorry to hear you're withdrawing, John, and hope you find your way back. If not, I wish you best of luck and success in your writing. I can't say I've noticed a falling off of quality. Like many, I have particular tastes and so only find a small percentage of posted work of special interest. That hasn't changed. I've also noticed how the site changes monthly, due to the different personalities and styles of those using it most heavily. But your take is your take, and it will be a loss for us if you stop participating. Tom

dear Tom

thank you for preserving this thread


silent lotus

i think i owe folks an explanation for my moving on.  obviously, you can sense my frustration...i think it's because (philosophically) my goals and the goals of the PC site have diverged.  i'll just leave it at that.  i've met many many wonderful and interesting people here...and they'll be missed.  i just had to make a personal decision based on the reading time i have available to me, compared with what i want to be reading IN that time.  those folks on the site whose work i cherish (and you know who you are) i will continue to follow.  that will not change.
thanks again, for everything.
best...
always...
john

John, I just saw this and don't understand it.  I understand your feelings, and realize my poems are probably some of the poems you mention.  After all, one of mine was on the front page when you wrote this.  I can't help but think there's at least some minor connection.  As one of the writers you mention, I can honestly say I do the best I can and am very open to criticism.  I have no idea how many other writers I speak for but I see it here everyday.

I understand your lack of time, as well, and can handle that easily.

What I don't understand is your lack of help with this issue.  You've been wonderful to help me in many ways.  You've been nothing but honest with me, and I've taken every spoonful negative and positive, without a whimper.

I don't understand why you don't advise us regarding this matter.  In the time it's taken you to write this comment and reply to it you could have posted a 'list' of things to do away with, to make sure we have, etc. or whatever, when writing a poem.

I don't know much but I can advise someone to cease rhyming for an occasion, just for an example, or I can help out with spelling, grammer, and punctuation, or whatever, but not being an editor I have to watch my place, or I'll be wasting my time too.

Like right now, I can air an issue that bothers me.  It bothers me when a writer posts poems in submit without replying to other poems.  I don't know what the ratio should be in poems to comments, but I do know if a writer shows up alot in posting poems, he should show up alot in replying, the best he can.  If he thinks the poems he reads aren't worth replying to he should say why, in order to help, not to be superior.

This is a poetry workshop.  We WORK here.  At least I do.  Work and re-work and don't be afraid to.  I would at least expect you to spend some time in the workshop more before you leave, if you haven't already, in order to back up what you say with words.  It doesn't take long to say 'this is awesome and will be a pick' and it doesn't take long to say 'you need to work on this' and transfer to the workshop.  I bet if you did that more often rather than showing your disappointment, I for one, would think even harder about posting my writing on the the submit board.  And I bet others would too.

Maybe this website needs a good hard dose of honesty.  If it does, thanks for that, and thanks for allowing me a place to air my thoughts.  But what it doesn't need is your absence as a poet, and your absence as an editor, and I say that to all the editors, not just you.

And for once, I'll not be concerned about what I've said here and delete it tonight when I look again.  I've spoken what is truth to me, to you and to the website as a whole.  Any further, I can't go.

cheryl

nothing to add to that. thanks cheryl for putting into words what i found hard to do.

John--Honestly your post reminds me of the old phrase 'if you're bored then you're probably boring.' I can understand your opinion, and on some level even respect it. Poetry is a very personal thing. Everyone reacts to a poem differently and everyone's tastes are as diverse as their personal life experiences. What one person sees as a masterpiece someone else might think is garbage. It's just the way things are and rightly so.

But something does very much bother me about your post. I have been a member here for almost a year now, and though that isn't nearly as long as some, it is enough time for me to see several people come and go. Hell, I've barely been on myself this winter and spring, people get busy. Some members that used to post on this board several times a day when I first joined haven't been around for months. Plenty of people have moved on from this board for whatever reason. I'm sure some for the very same reasons you state above; but you're the only one that felt the need to make a statement. I really have no idea what this was supposed to accomplish and fail to see how this does anything to either illuminate or solve the problems you mention. It's pretty easy to cut and run rather than stay and try to be a part of the solution, get things back to where you think they belong. I think it just shows how little you really had invested in this community. At the very least perhaps you and your great silent majority could point us to a forum that better meets your standards so we can read and enjoy the poetry there.

I doubt I'm even on your radar enough for this statement to be directed at me so I'm not even upset by this. It's more like when you're a little kid and you break something in the house that has sentimental value to your parents. I'm not mad John, I'm just disappointed.

May I just say, for the record, that John had been a member for a long time before he was asked to assist as an editor. When approached, he was reluctant, for a number of reasons, to take on the task, and took some persuading. That he now wishes to relinquish that task should surely only be taken with grace, and with thanks for the extra effort he has put in.

milner

Milner--I respect immensely as a poet but I just can't agree with you here.

It's really it's not that he's leaving that bothers me. Not in the least. It's the manner in which he's chosen to do it. You say we should take it with grace? Well maybe he should have shown some. Titling your goodbye post 'i just can't take it anymore' is about as far from graceful as one can get. Then saying this: 'the poems and posts on this site have been nothing but bland, boring, repetitive, imitative, derivitave, self-serving and useless' about the writers on this site is insulting and untrue. As impressed as I am with his '1200 published poems' that doesn't give him the right to talk down to anyone. For any reason. If this alienates me from this site or its users then so be it. But this little post pisses me off and if Yamrus gets to air his grievances than so do the rest of us.

I really do not want to start some kind of internet argument about this, least of all with you Milner, but I'm also not going to sit here and let Yamrus take his parting shots and just smile and nod. I truly do not wish to offend any of the people here but I've had some experience with this recently and people don't get to just say whatever they want online or in a text message without any consequences. If John wants to speak his mind I believe I have the right to respond.

ok, milner, my apologies.  but I'll not delete my reply, although I'm feeling like it after your post, because, as always, you're right in what you say and the way you look at things.  I was a bit bitchy in my reply because John, you have so much to give, but apparently you don't have time to give it.  it's our loss. 

Stewart, I will say I agree with you.  just my last word on all this drama, myself included.

peace and grace,
cheryl

Differing opinions are vital to the health of this site. I will say no more on this except to note that John's statement has brought to the forefront of my mind something I regard as essential for writers in any medium, and of which I must admit to have neglected of late. That is to ask myself the simple question, after writing any piece: 'Is this boring?' In that, he has done me a great service. Doubtless others don't need such a simplicistic reminder, but I do.

Cheers

milner

Since we are all putting our last words in on this I will do the same. This will be the last thing I saw about this as I feel I have spoken my thoughts on the matter.

I could not agree with you more Milner. We all need that reminder to look at ourselves and our writing and say, 'is that interesting relevant, and important?' If it is, job well done. If its not, start again. I agree with that completely. But I was always taught 'what' you say is just as important as 'how' you say it.

Interesting topic this. I've always been a big fan of Adorno's article 'Commitment' http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=15, so I'll see John's comment in the light of this. The stench of humanity has everything to be said for it. As long as we can deal with it while still remembering our ethics. And this can be a problem. So here's an article from one of the 3 major Danish papers, who have taken it upon themselves to blame one poet for the demise of Denmark's only poetry site, http://politiken.dk/kultur/tvogradio/article876969.ece in Danish but the google translation is readable. It is a very apt description of the state of the Danish poetry scene. Just to say I'm so very grateful to have found a place like this where ethics do seem to be high on the agenda, I'm sure you can even rock and rave here without losing sight of them.

Peaceful cheers

I'm grateful to have you here, Doris, and grateful you posted this message.  I haven't read the article yet but plan too.  Regarding what you've found here, I've seen just about everything here with the exception of verbal attacks and deliberately hurtful posts.  What's ethical or not, well ethics are ethics.  Personally I try to follow the simplicity of the golden rule and treat others as I wish to be treated, which is what most members do here too, so I think we're all ok for now.

I think John's move was something personal and important to him, and from milner's posts I understand there was more to the issue than meets the eye.  I wasn't aware of all situations when I posted and wish I had been, but don't we all.

Anyway, thanks.            cheryl


 

Rudeness, like dog droppings, is of no particular interest to me, something to be avoided. What interests me is the intersection between what happened here and Doris's post earlier about confusing reality and fantasy. Much of John Yamrus's poetry was intended, among other things, to narrow the gap between poetry and real life. Much of it also contained rudeness directed by his narrator at readers, writers, and other characters. In the context of poetry, provocation can be valuable; but it is an imagining person addressing an imagined person. At the start of this thread, I think, he may have mistaken those imaginary people virtually presented here with the real people virtually present here -- a thin, collapsing line here on the postmodern internet, but still and always an important one. Tom

Thanks, Cheryl. Lovely to have 'met' you too. I am working on a poem based on 'Commitment'.
I'm theoretically challenged, so must admit John's point read like a summary of Adorno's to me... And trust me, where I come from, comments like John's are not considered rude.
And what you, Tom, write above about John's work is precisely how I found my way here... My stuff is all about this confusion of spheres.
Smiles from me

In the time of elshtain rabid moths
nested in our mouths. Prophecies
teetered like candle sticks striving
for balance. It takes something of
a quake to move rock, and all that
lies dormant. We come here to be
moved, we are looking for ground
swell, the displacement of pebbles
on steep slopes.  Now and then a
voice shakes loose our own phlegm
revealing a never before heard bell.
Poets adopt sounds, Yamrus wants
to foster an autistic paraplegic child.

Nice poem. My main concern is the ADD of the world. Writing a novel in verse is my proposed cure for that. :-)

John, I'm not sure about your goals, but I can say that the goals of the site have not changed one small bit. We have the same process and largely the same people now that we had when the the site was created. Essentially the site will give back as much energy as we put in, but there are other issues at play as well. Significantly, I think that a large segment of the community of writers still views online enterprises with a degree of curiosity, and indeed I have found that many of the writers I grew up with, who are in my age bracket, are in fact functionally illiterate online. I actually still get poets that I used to publish back in the days of the paper zines sending me work by email and asking me to post it here because they don't know how. Maybe the site is too hard to use. I'm not sure. But my point is that if we want exciting new talent here, we are probably going to have to invite people ourselves. That and the talent that comes in by way of the registration process here will be what keeps this site worth visiting, I think.

John,

Poets need to be trained.  They come from the same stockpot as everyone else.  A man who has given his life to a certain way of writing -- who has suffered the shocks and neglect that come from such dedication -- has a lot to teach.  I hope you'll stay and continue to say what you think and feel.  If certain poems and poets seem hopeless, you can always avoid them.  There are some fine writers here -- not just Milner -- and many more potentially fine writers.  They need what you have to tell them, even if they reject ti for the moment.

Rick 

Re: Are you commenting?

http://www.poetrycircle.com/index.php/topic,19523.0.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.poetrycircle.com/index.php/topic,17387.msg124399.html#msg124399

Posted by: Doris Chance Posted on: May 06, 2010, 02:48:13 PM
Insert Quote
Interesting topic this. I've always been a big fan of Adorno's article 'Commitment' http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=15, so I'll see John's comment in the light of this. The stench of humanity has everything to be said for it. As long as we can deal with it while still remembering our ethics. And this can be a problem. So here's an article from one of the 3 major Danish papers, who have taken it upon themselves to blame one poet for the demise of Denmark's only poetry site, http://politiken.dk/kultur/tvogradio/article876969.ece in Danish but the google translation is readable. It is a very apt description of the state of the Danish poetry scene. Just to say I'm so very grateful to have found a place like this where ethics do seem to be high on the agenda, I'm sure you can even rock and rave here without losing sight of them.

Peaceful cheers
~

`


http://www.museumoftolerance.com




`

John is a decent guy and a fine writer. I pray he returns soon. It’s only been in the last few days that the penny dropped, so I had not a clue he had gone, driven by despair by all account.

I refuse to speculate, or make excuses one way or the other. We do what we do.

All I know is this place will be poorer because of John’s unique blend of sturm und drang, which was, at times, like the yard-dog meets the enlightenment school where they live. And we all know, or most should by now here, it does no good taking things to heart because you usually get creamed, else feel a right prat.

So John, if you should read this, please take this open letter for what it is, a note between two old farts who both know better than to rush off and burn a bunch of bridges. I would ask you here and now in the cool light of day, to reconsider and return home. I miss the fun, not to mention a few spots of blood here and there.

Best wishes,

Dax

Tuesday, October 26, 2010.





.

seconded