---

In redeeming moments, we
share plots of favorite novels.
My brother:
     "Imagine how heavy a gallon of milk is
     when you heft it with one hand.
     Imagine billions of those gallons,
     more than twice the volume of Niagara Falls
     over fifty feet high,
     more than white men had ever seen,
     propelling through the south."

My response:
     "Unbelievable and frightening...
     Why mention only white men?
     What about black men?"

We weren't raised prejudiced.

    "Because history paints it that way...
    if black workers didn't drown or get shot,
    they were filling and stacking sandbags,
    or held at gun point
    forced to work levees
    at seventy-five cents a day,
    left to die on levees,
    and eventually tried to escape on barges
    with white foremen in charge
    and time ticking backward:
          'Let's put all the niggers
          on a plank of wood
          and cut it loose!'     
          'No!  Keep 'em here! 
          We need cotton pickers!'
     from sunup to sunrise for a dollar.
     White men argued over black."

Levees break,
tributaries join the power
of a river seventy miles wide,
more than fifty feet deep,
gushing over land
killing and debasing.

---

If someone reads this, could you tell me or suggest how you think the conversation points should be handle.  Don't particularly like the way it is now.  Maybe it shouldn't even be noted as conversation.  Dunno.  But sure would like to know.

cheryl

Better now, Cheryl. I'd consider cutting out the 2 line penultimate stanza. Don't think we need to be 'told' there  - it can be deduced by what's gone before.

milner

Thanks milner.  I wondered if someone would tell me that and I'm kinda glad you did because it shortens the writing.

I removed the last two lines first, then realized you meant the other 'telling' two lines.  Is is ok?  Or should I add them.

I worked on this poem regarding historical fact, more than most of what I write.  Will do what I have to, to make it an easy read.  Maybe not a pretty one, but an easy one.

cheryl

This is a very interesting poem Cheryl, especially the historical aspect.  I was born in Birmingham Alabama in the early sixties in the midst of the 16th Street church bombing and as MLK Jr. sat writing his letter from a Birmingham jail.  I am going to mull this over a bit and reread it a couple of times. A first thought would be that it needs punctuation. I am very interested in writings about the south.  Good work here. Would you consider moving the first stanza up to break apart some of the quotes?

Thanks,
Sherry

That "debasing" at end unusual, a surprise, a good one, Cheryl. The last S strong altogether.
First line of S2 sounds like same voice as S1, but is supposed to be kids, right?
Brave, strong writing. Good reading. Tom

Sherry, I love your comments.  Please feel free to be clearer about punc and line breaks and anything else you have time to do, or advice to give.  I really want this poem to work for some reason.

cheryl

Tom thank you so much.  Your reply hits the spot.  I was concerned about the end.  And no, not kids.  but a conversation between me and my brother.  I'll make it clearer.

What do you think about line breaks and punc?

thanks again,
cheryl

Is brother speaking S6, Cheryl?
Who speaks S2? Tom

Tom thanks for your attention with this one.  It pays to keep a poem in workshop no matter how excited I am about it.  I spent time on the facts, but not the way it was written.

Is it clearer now?

cheryl

I like that new line, "White men argued over black."

Thanks Tom.  I changed the first two lines too.  Didn't sound good.  Hope it's clearer now.

cheryl

beginning's nice, and whole layout, cheryl. I was partial to original ending, with the floodwaters (poetically) doing the debasing. tom

I can change it back.  When I first wrote this, I went into that more--too much, and took it all out.  I've wondered since then what I did.  Maybe too much.

Well, I'm glad, anyway. I think it's a great ending this way.

dear Cheryl

this is gradually becoming an interesting blossom

silent lotus

Thanks Tom.  Very much.

cheryl

I wish the bro began S4 with some clue I could interpret as his answer to N's question "Why mention only white men?"

Silent, I'm so sorry I missed your reply.  Thanks so much.  Yeah, the river is flowing a little slow, eh?

cheryl

Tom thanks for pointing that out.  I added a few phrases.  Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
cheryl

Yeah, I think that's enough, Cheryl. Here, though,

    "Because history handles it that way...
    if they didn't drown or get shot,

the "they" might have to be specified better now. Tom

I keep coming back to this, Cheryl. I can understand your attachment to it, it seems both personal and (in the best sense) impersonal. Important truths and all that.

I'll continue to follow its development with interest. I might even have a more concrete suggestion next time!

It's also reminding me - big time - of Randy Newman's great song about (I think) the same event - Louisiana 1927. Do you know that one? Worth seeking out if you don't. (That whole album, Good Old Boys, is - so far as I, as a Brit, can tell - very good on the South.)

Cheers

David

David!  Had no idea you were keeping up with this poem.  The history is fascinating.  Please feel free to advise me in anyway you wish.

Regarding Randy Newman, sounds like you've done your homework, and yeah, I bet it is about the same flood.  Louisiana was greatly effected/affected(?).

Thanks again,
cheryl

"more than white men had ever seen" makes me think back through history, at floods, at Noah's flood, at the Nile, at the Danube, wherever....like how ancient this whole poem winds up, all its themes ancient...

Tom, thanks for your continuing comments.  Don't know what I'd do without them.  I had more hope for this poem, but it just doesn't seem to be latching on.  I wonder if I should change the opening by going directly into the conversation.

thanks again,
cheryl

First of all, maybe "latching on" isn't its bag, Cheryl. It's a very unusual poem. A very good unusual poem. Let it be that.
Second of all, what are you talking about? It's being read and commented on profusely and has been riding the front page of Submit for almost 2 weeks!
Tom

oh ok.  maybe I just needed you to tell me that.   I'll leave it alone for now and see what happens.

thank you so much,
cheryl

those Nobels take time...

now that's an interesting thought, not about my poem of course, but who one the last nobel peace prize for a poem, or is it poetry?  I think I'll look it up.  thanks Tom.

What a relief to see this here.  I really like the subject and really hoped someone else would too.  Thanks, whoever you are.

cheryl

Sorry, that was me, forgot to say so. Good, unusual poem, as I've said! Tom

Tom, thanks for seeing more in this poem than I did and sharing it with me.
cheryl

silent, thank you for your ever-watching eye.
cheryl

Hey! Look at this heavy duty blast from the past on the Front Page! Congrats, Cheryl. Tom

another fine poem, Cheryl.
congrats on the front page.

tiko

Wow.  wow.  wow.  I'm really speechless.  Thanks so much.  Rick?  Is it?  You have no idea what this means to me.  And I thought everyone was mad at me.

cheryl

Cheryl,  you're rightly pleased to see this on the front page.  I'm going to be unpopular and say it's a surprise, even knowing that taste in poetry is more subjective than taste in fashion.   While I love the concept this never flew because of the "my response" section.  I was hoping it would evolve, clearly that won't happen now but I'd be untrue to my sense of values if I didn't say it.

k   

Thank you. silent.

Kevin, I'd still like to hear your suggestions.  When you say 'evolve', can you be more specific?  You're right, I wouldn't change the poem after when on the front page. chosen by an editor, out of respect for him.  But just because a poem's on the front page doesn't mean it dies there.  There is an afterlife.  If you'll tell me what you wish you'd read or give me an example, I might choose to change it elsewhere.  Respecting an editor's choice doesn't mean I don't have a mind of my own, or have a set of values of my own.

Thanks for your comment,
cheryl

interesting how this poem evolved (as seen through the comments)
the meaning is still a mystery to me but I keep reading it
so mission accomplished
it's unique

Cheryl,  great response, and true to you and your poem.  I don't know exactly how I'd change it and I fear this is gong to come out sounding cruel when it's intended to be open.

So, there are two things that jar bad for me.  The "my response" section.   If the first line in s2 was from a great novel it would feel balanced with s1.   But "unbelievable and frightening" feel immediately judgemental and that clashes with the opening lines (which I love) which talk of swopping plots.....  The whole of the "my response" section feels stark and judgemental..... Too stark and too judgemental too soon is my impression undermining the brilliant opening and making me feel it's a set up.

Then the closing lines with all those gerunds just die for me.  It feels mushy, there's no death there, no debasement, just description.  You could have done something brilliant and brought the poem full circle by maybe using redemption  - Ending with something like:

"This water isn't the redeeming kind"

Sorry if this is coming out tough love.   It just amazes me that editors find something front page special here where I find a good poem, work-in-progress to excellent.   

k

Kevin, thank you for caring about my feelings.  But whatever or however you did or said, my feelings aren't hurt.  You've given me alot to think about.  The funny thing is that when I write a poem I don't think about 'doing something brilliant'.  My goal is to convey a movement, thought, or emotion in a way that's clear and comprehensive.  Maybe I should think about brilliancy more often.

I will certainly be thinking about your reply...with no hurt feelings.  Thank you.

cheryl

Actually I'm just glad and honored that you read the poem and chose to reply.  Means alot to me.

 

Big thanks Cheryl,  greatly value your noble reply.   However this changes in the future it's wonderful to think how your voice has strengthened and developed and now been honoured with front page recognition.  I celebrate that journey - and the journey to come - with great delight.

k

What a wonderful reply, Kevin.  Thank you so much.  And thanks for recognizing the journey.  May not have traveled far, and maybe not as far as some, but traveled.

cheryl