Some years back at a gallery full of my father in law's abstract art, what I dreaded happened. He walked up behind me as a gazed on a frame full of squiggles and asked me what I thought. In the next few minutes, he explained to me that if I simply related what happened in my head when I looked at it, that was 100% as legitimate and 100% as valuable as the criticism of the most knowledgeable experts.

Same is true of poetry. Yes, some writers post replies that contain technical references or suggestions, but they are no more helpful, and often less so, than posting just your plain old reaction. "This reminds me of Aunt Millie." "This makes me angry." "I was excited here but got frustrated here." etc. Simple. All statements that are incontrovertibly true, all statements that are invaluable to the writer's understanding of what happens when a reader takes their poem out for a spin - and no judgements needed as to whether the poem is "good" or "bad." The writer can then decide if they want this kind of reaction, or want to change the poem to go after something else. No reader is more important than the next, so each person's reaction is equally important.

So--don't be shy! You are the world's living expert on how you react to each poem! Share the knowledge! Tom

Tom,

Are you saying that all criticism is created equal? An interestingly egalitarian viewpoint, I must say. Certain bones in my body want to agree with you (and I think I understand your motive) but, burdened by a 'big picture' mind, I can't help but think about how this philosophy you've outlined can be applied to the canon of literature (a stupid thing, anyway, I know!).

Certainly, you would agree that a simple layman's interpretation of Four Quartet's is not on the same playing field as, say, a scholar's who has studied the various influences, allusions, and relevent contextual information that went into its creation. That is not to say that the layman's interpretation and reaction are not as valuable or valid, but does the layman's reaction help the world at large gain access to Eliot's message? I don't think so, or at least, I think the scholar's may be far more comprehensive, dynamic.

Maybe I am digressing away from what you mean to get at, here. I think you are talking about it in terms of what those comments add for the writer, and I am thinking more in terms of how those comments add for the audience. What do you think? Am I on the same track?

what will help the world at large gain access to Eliot's message is for ten laymen to say "I'm confused" and for Eliot to make it clearer, I think!

Oh, man. I think I can hear him turning... :)

Well, obviously you need to be trained in order to read poetry.  At a minimum you need to be trained in how to read English.  You also need to know enough about life to be able to understand what the poet references.    Beyond that, it's helpful to know enough about poetry to have an idea what the poet is doing.   But everyone is otherwise wrong.  It's not too relevant whether a poem frustrates you or makes you angry.  What is important is if it gives you an emotional reaction that causes you to see or feel something new or insightful about life.  A good poem will do this for the reader, but maybe not every reader.  So should Eliot dumb down his work?  Not really.  But should stuff like that only be accessible to the favored few who have graduate degrees in how to read it?  Probably not either.  Eliot is a bad example because he felt the need to provide footnotes for his nearly incomprehensible Wasteland.  But still that wonderful poem was evocative and amazing on some level.  People who try to emulate it now, however, fail.  Today, the ability to speak in simple language, using those words to paint and convey useful or complex images, is more meaningful.     

If the writer wishes to disregard the reactions of certain audiences, fine. Writers can write for the average person, only highly educated people or French-literate people or combat-experienced people or whoever they choose. My point is that when criticizing a piece of writing, in a forum like this one or elsewhere, you provide your reaction, whoever YOU are, and that reaction is true and informative. No one need think, I'm not qualified to speak.

"No one need think, I'm not qualified to speak."

Right on, Tom.

Yeah, I agree with that. 

Absolutely. I agree. That was what I thought you were getting at in your original post...apologies for my massive digression.

i personally take issue with the notion my opinion is lesser because i'm not trained.  joy in reading and understanding requires no training, neither does judgement.  judgement requires no training (repeated for those who didn't hear). and to say "someone who has studied this topic in and out is better able to judge" is a load of BS because in the end, it's just someone else's opinion.  it's just someone else's judgement.  and, judgement is not scientific.  it's not rule based.  it's an opinion.  so, for me to hear someone stand before me to explain why i should feel a certain way about Eliot based on his/her findings is as helpful to me as if i were deciding burger king or mcdonalds.  and, to proclaim certain works triumphs because they are technically sound is a farce, imo.  i hate sock poems!

i saw the posting about the iambic pentameter.  i was honestly floored.  i had no idea such a thing existed.  and, i equated it to someone asking me how much meta data is encapsulated in the first 5 packets of a fiber channel frame on an FDDI (fiber distributed data interface) ring, and how many bytes are allocated to those first five, and what process is used to break a fiber frame that's too large into fiber packets, which are then turned into ethernet packets.  
                                                 I DON'T GIVE A SHIT!

all i know is, for me, bukowski rocks, ginsberg not so much!  so in the us vs. them debate, i'm them.  

i hope this doesn't offend. :D

tiko

P.S. Silent Lotus, i agree with your post whole heartedly.



GAVE MY RESPONSE SOME THOUGHT, AND

OK, that's not to say academics don't have their place.  but, i think sometimes, they are given too much power over what is and is not acceptable (form, content, etc.).  i like them. i'm just not very impressed.  for me, it's read it, like it, don't like it, and here's why.

Tom, I really appreciate you bringing this up.

I was wondering if I was considered qualified to speak, but figured if I wanted you all to respond to me I better do the same.  PC is a delight!

nrw

tiko, ironically the same father in law who taught me to just tell what I thought when I looked at paintings, he always argues with me that people need to be educated about art traditions. go figure.

nrw, that's one of the reasons I started the thread. we can't afford to be wallflowers. if we all want, say, 6 responses to what we write, it can only happen if we respond to 6 of our colleagues for each poem we ourselves post. tom

I'll be back after work...this post will change then It's to remind me where I want to be later!:)

Just mix in a little Under-Dog too and no one will notice.

REMINDER!  Sue Lozynskyj, you are supposed to be here.  I'm most interested in hearing your submission.

:D

thanks,

tiko

Sorry Tiko, life takes over sometimes! thanks for calling me back...

I find it most useful when someone says why. 

Why they like or don't,

What they like or don't,

Where things should go in the piece...reordering suggestions

When it should stop or start...the familiar top and tail so many of my poems need.

I love it if someone gives feedback that they have read my poem aloud, and report any tongue trips, or how the words sounded.  Lynn is especially good at this.  And I really like to know about any physical sensations or reactions...my eyes filled up, I felt my pulse quicken.

I like people to notice the title too, and tell me if they think it's not working.  All this is not very intellectual, it's a more craft-based approach. 

When I take time to comment in detail on someone's work I like to know what they thought of my suggestions...this has helped me very much with the feedback I give.  If someone always tries to justify why they cannot change a single word of the poem I'm unlikely to return to another piece by them...I do tend to be a bit textbook when suggesting changes but Milner and other wiser heads will sometimes point out the merit of the existing words.  I think the more people who comment the better...otherwise we all end up writing in the same style.


I enjoy the style of criticism on this site...good humoured, not dogmatic, respectful

Enough?

~~~

 from undated pages


"Empty paper creates poetry, publishing instills the world with drops of hope"........silent lotus


"Poetry is that which precedes the need for definition".......silent lotus


~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNtNxhQmkt4

CineGraphic — October 06, 2009 — This short was made for the 2007 72 Hour Film Festival in Frederick, Maryland.
All of the clips used in this film came from a reel of 35mm nitrate found in an old theater somewhere in Pennsylvania.

The projectionist clipped these scenes to meet local moral standards of the time.
Will our current forms of censorship look just as ridiculous to future generations?

well, I'm no prude, but those feet-alone scenes ARE darn racy! thanks, SL. Years ago I inadvertently lost a dear friend's homemade VHS compendium of favorite sex scenes. maybe with this I can make amends...tom

silent, your 'forbidden images' youtube is priceless.  amazing isn't it?  regarding feet only images, Tom, love the one where the chick keeps trying to put her shoe back on but it's backwards.  I bet she felt caught at being such a floozy.  -cheryl

Tom, I came to this very interesting post late,
and I can't add much to what has already been
said nor can I speak as eloquently as some.

I agree with most of the comments, some
more than others.  There are many sides
to every debate.  The first thing I noticed
was the title of the post.  "How to criticize
poetry."
I have never thought of a review as criticism,
rather I think of it as offering suggestions.

Everyone who posts a poem should review
as many poems as possible.  If you are
new to the process an encouraging comment
is good - not useless IMO.  At least make
an attempt.  Tom, by tagging it criticism,
you may cause writers to be reluctant
about offering an opinion of what could
improve a poem.  It is always on a take
or leave basis.  I try to add this, but
sometimes don't, (since it should be understood).

I don't agree with all of the methods
you mentioned, but you have helped
me many time to improve my poems
by using your suggestions.

Every reply should be acknowledged;
it is only common courtesy.
Most are very good about this and gracious.
I am appreciative of any response
even when on a few occasions my work
has been called fluff.   :)

To each his own.  It makes me try harder.

Thanks for starting this post, Tom.
It's an important topic.

Marion

Thanks, Marion, you're right, "criticize" sounds scary. I only mean it as reviewing, as you say - what book critics or movie critics do. I should change the title. Tom

wow, now here's a subject.... I had to respond on seeing eliot mentioned.
In a poetry group i belong to he is lauded to the skies, and try as i have, many times, i've found ploughing though wasteland, a chore, despite many great lines, and still struggle with his high pedestal.
I read it again, then again...and eventually, on seeing a book called a guide to t s eliot, bought and tramped through a few chapters, till it wore me down.....then a year later, i bought a students guide to the selected poems of... and downed a few pints of that....by which time sadly i was no clearer on his brilliance and thought that if i needed to read two books to understand one poem, maybe i was either from the lower echelons in brave new world, or, it just wasn't my thing. So reading other people referring to it as a minefeild, helped me breathe out...thanks
I'm now firmly ensconced, back reading things that i know where they're at, and i don't care, cause i like winnie the pooh.
jerry

and on the subject of critique, i appreciate all and any i may get, but often trying to reply to others, miss the point of some deeper poems, so may edge gently away from commenting, but i blame tigger for that.

Jerry, what single thing do writers need to find out more than when they fail to make a point? Please do tell me when I don't! Tom

can't say i ever missed your points tom, but many poems do lose me, and i start wondering what its all about, even at my poetry group, we all sometimes are amazed by what other people think our poems are about....its goes...

each reads their own own poem
no explanations
excuses
then all are free to comment, but the poet must stay silent till the end, not a word.
the poem must stand on its own feet.
and its always interesting to see what others read into them.
now i'll shut up
cheers
jeery

Thanks for this thread, Tom.  I suspect many wallflowers (ahem) just feel a bit under-qualified to comment on some of the great stuff on here.  After an initial emotional response, I need to read, re-read, and then read what other people have read into something, before having any intellectual thoughts! But I say, start small, and learn.  The qualified critic will come with practise (hopefully!)

As I said, Anne, don't intimidate yourself! Something happens to everyone when they read a poem, and the writers need to know what that is -- intellectual or not -- so they compare it with what they wanted to happen, and revise accordingly. -Tom 

It's the "connection" made with the reader (more than one, if possible!) I like to hear about, as well as all those areas Sue mentioned in an earlier post, and what tom says above in reply #29 -- intellectual or not.  I would add that along with comparing with what was wanted to happen and revising accordingly, comments from readers make me look at what I have written and explore my reasoning for having written in just such a way.  Sometimes my reasoning doesn't hold up; other times it is all too evident no reasoning whatsoever was used initially!  And still other times, I discover more about the 'whys' behind a particular phrasing or word choice. 

I find it amazing and magical and curious, the different takes we readers have on the same posted work!  How one comment from another poet can open new ways of viewing a third poet's work.

useful article Silent Lotus.  I like the light bulb bit!